“I have tried hard, and yet I cannot for the life of me comprehend how we got into that mess. ... I thought we should act as their protector — not try to get them under our heel. We were to relieve them from ... tyranny to enable them to set up a government of their own, and we were to stand by and see that it got a fair trial. It was not to be a government according to our ideas, but a government that represented the feeling of the majority of the [people], a government according to [their] ideas. That would have been a worthy mission for the United States. But now — why, we have got into a mess, a quagmire from which each fresh step renders the difficulty of extrication immensely greater. I'm sure I wish I could see what we were getting out of it, and all it means to us as a nation.”4,324 American soldiers died, many of them killed by irregulars and insurgents, in a conflict that was a credit to no one. Iraq? No. Nor much of a parallel, really. Guesses as to where and when?
Thursday, April 26, 2007
Parallel? Not Really, But
A great American writer said this:
17 comments:
That has to be the Philippines.
Yep, you have a proud history of it. See my post "Thank you America" for news of another splendid adventure, for which the locals are giving you their dying gratitude.
Mark Twain on the Philippine-American War or insurrection or whatever you want to call it. He was agin the mess from the get-go.
We were fighting there for a very long time (1899-1913), if you count the fighting that continued after "mission accomplished." Heck, we are still there. You mean to say the Philippines is not our unofficial fifty-first state?
Most of the American soldiers who died in that war died of disease. Four times as many Philippine soldiers died than Americans. A hellacious number of civilians, over a million by some estimates, died. For their own better good.
Ever read Twain's In Defense of General Funston?
I'd always wondered who Fort Funston was named for. Did Funston save San Francisco in the aftermath of 1906 or did his idiocy just make things worse? Opinions differ.
Right. Phillippines. That's what I thought as well. Could've been Cuba though.
Dr. Zen, you're living in a glass house and throwing stones. No government's hands are clean. We're just the villains of the hour. Fairly vile ones, I completely agree, but let's not forget such adventures as Algeria, the Amritsar Massacre, or how Britain dealt with the Mau Mau, what the Belgians did to the Congo, what the Russians did to much of Central Asia, and how much of the world looked the other way about 13 years ago when Rwanda brewed up. How about China's "protection" of Tibet.? Even the Canadians (No! Not the sainted Canadians! Yes, the sainted Canadians) had a bunch of paras convicted of war crimes.
Or are America's crimes the only ones worth getting exercised about.
"You mean to say the Philippines is not our unofficial fifty-first state?"
I thought that was Puerto Rico.
"You mean to say the Philippines is not our unofficial fifty-first state?"
I thought that was Puerto Rico.
It's deja vu all over again. ;)
Eerily similar to todays thoughts.
Every great nation does terrible things, in and among the things it thinks are necessary. Maybe Sherman shouldn't have marched to the sea. Maybe we should have tried to blockade Japan for ten or twenty years. Maybe we should accept the Oily Crescent going nuclear. But there's no doubt we shouldn't have fucked around with the Philippines' nascent republic. The articles about Funston were fascinating. Not to mention repellent.
Three things for you to get clear on, Harry.
First and most important, you're doing it now, we were doing it then. Being the current villain matters a helluva lot more than being yesterday's bad guy. And, what's more, you were yesterday's bad guy too, and the fallout from that is still being felt.
Second, I'm not an apologist for English colonialism, did not and do not support it and, as it happens, my people were Irish, subject to colonialism themselves, for most of the time the English had an empire. Nor am I a patriot; if I was, maybe you'd have a tiny point. Don is an apologist for American imperialism and an American patriot.
Third, last, but not least at all, two wrongs do not make a right. I have lost count of how many times I have had to point out this simple moral rule, which we teach to three-year-olds to Americans who think it excuses their country's atrocious behaviour that others have also done wrong. It doesn't.
Other people's crimes are important, Harry, but this post was about one of yours. If Don posts about the Congo (unlikely because he doubtless knows fuck all about it), we can talk about that here. Ditto the other items on your list. Just so we're clear, I have no problem with America qua America. I don't have a problem with you as a people. Why would I? Like most liberals, I have a great admiration for America in a lot of respects. But I hate imperialism whoever's doing it; I hate corporatism wherever it manifests itself; and I hate authoritarianism (and have posted about authoritarianism and its cousin, nannyism, in the UK on my own blog -- where I much more often have complained about my own country than I have anyone else's).
One of the problems that besets human relations is people's need to be able to use this phrase: "Every great nation..." There are many ways to measure "greatness". In my view, Sweden is ten times as great as the States. It can be distinguished by a conscious decision to stop trying to be great in your terms, which has led to its being a force for good, disproportionately to its small population.
"Funston's example has bred many imitators, and many ghastly additions to our history: the torturing of Filipinos by the awful "water-cure," for instance, to make them confess--what? Truth? Or lies? How can one know which it is they are telling? For under unendurable pain a man confesses anything that is required of him, true or false, and his evidence is worthless."
Aye. The Funstonians won over the Traitors, sure enough. (Comic that those who opposed the illegal war in the Philippines were called "Traitors" by the "patriots" who wanted it, and so we who oppose today's dirty imperial war are called the same.)
We aren't the world's police.
It really annoys me that we Americans (our govt decides on our behalf, I know) decide to get involved in various conflicts around the world, but only selectively so.
Why aren't we helping Zimbabwe break free of that syphylitic asswipe (mugabe) - or rid Myanmar of her police state? Because there is nothing in it for us.
Iraq gives us a stronghold in the region - politically and economically.
Really - we should get the fluck out of Iraq, seeing as we've caused enough havoc to those poor people by putting Saddam Hussein into power -then changing our minds when we couldn't control him anymore (we're only there for money anyway) and let them sort it out for themselves.
Forgive my rant.
" I have lost count of how many times I have had to point out this simple moral rule, which we teach to three-year-olds to Americans who think it excuses their country's atrocious behaviour that others have also done wrong. It doesn't."
You're absolutely right - it doesn't. It DOES, however, help the finger-pointers know exactly where they stand. That's ass-deep in hypocrisy.
Hey Answer to the Black Death,
I see your point(s), but your delivery doesn't lead one to believe that you ever get cranked about anything other than what the US is doing to Iraq, or has done before now to some unfortunate "blameless" nation.
"...in the UK on my own blog -- where I much more often have complained about my own country than I have anyone else's."
Glad to hear it. Gives me hope. Maybe it's just your delivery (lecturing from on high) that fries my grits. At any rate, you seem to have an underlying assumption that my pointing out the sins of others is a thinly veiled attempt to excuse our actions in Iraq and elsewhere. They're not. You'd have seen that long before now. No, my intent was simply to just let fly at your America-directed vitriol. You may admire America for many reasons, but I've never read any of that from you on here. You basically just take aim and spit it out at seemingly every possible moment. I was just reminding you that we are no greater a Satan than any other colonial power has ever been. Call it an emotional jab from a patriotic Yank who is deeply unhappy about what his federal government has done in the past six years, but who still finds things to be proud of as an American. If that just sticks in your craw, then find something to wash it down with.
Oh yeah, Black Death, you mentioned
this in your first post:
"Yep, you have a proud history of it."
Then later you say this:
"Being the current villain matters a helluva lot more than being yesterday's bad guy."
Make up your mind. Apparently, being yesterday's bad guy DOES matter where America is concerned, but not where any other imperial power is concerned. Hmmm.
All imperial powers from the Romans through to The British empire has used force and the threat of force to control others. As America is the dominant force, it is just following the same old blueprint and when America fades and whoever takes it place, they will more than likely do the same and so on and so on forever.
Post a Comment